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Class action to test government promise to veterans

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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 20:45

Propat,

The charts, benefits, all the claimed benefits that they are pointing out sounds all good and fine,

but what is lacking in their defense is the numbers.

Show us the numbers, how many vets are we talking about, at what percent of Veterans qualifies for this.

If one is selling their vehicle, shines it up to the highest shine, praises the vehicle as if it were brand new,
if the purchaser takes it for a ride, and it does not run in conjunction of which the seller has stated,
the purchaser is not going to buy it.
When trying to sell the benefits of the NVC the same applies, the seller must show the whole picture,
not just what is in the NVC.

If you read what the OVO has been writing, he does raise some good points as to the numbers who actually would benefit,
so in my view he is trying to address issues with the NVC, that shows he is seeking fairness for us.
So I think he respects the voice of Veterans, and I also think that he has a way of pointing out issues,
in a more clear perspective.

I totally agree that the lump sum was introduced as a cost cutting measure,
If the intent is to defend this lump some by introducing the other benefits that comes with the NVC,
I would think they don't have a leg to stand on, however they are very good at what they do,
time will tell of course.
And I may be missing something here, as I have been wrong before,
nevertheless, when the Liberals came out with the NVC, the Conservatives should have not implemented it,
it really is disappointing to know that in order for us to be heard, we must go to court.
It is the Veterans against the government.
Really it should have never come to this, they should have rested with the old act, and made improvements,
to it if they wanted a change, not replace it.

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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 20:00

all they really want is equality and they will get it. sure they are on their own . it doesn't look as though the the minister ore the OVO are tripping over themselves to help . and the GOC well you see it right delay delay delay keep the main battle out of court till after the next election. by chance the timing works for them so this they can do easily .

yup their is a lot of BS out their with charts an example's explaining ELB , PIA and the supplement im sure the DOJ will use and fire all this crap at the judge.

at the end of the day im sure the legal team will not be distracted and start talking eligibility to these programs wasting everyone's time.

they will simply point out these programs are available to PA members making the PA and NVC all but equal with the exception of the buyout VS the monthly pension.

so if it pleas the court we would like to skip the sideshow and go to this as it is the heart of the matter.

they will show that the buyout weather its taken as a lump sum or monthly has an aprox value of 9 1/4 years of the PA monthly for a single person with no children not counting for COLA.

of course they will throw out examples of married vets with 4 or 5 kids and such just to show how much worse it is for these people .

then in the end the judge will have it in his hands .

I really cant wait.

propat




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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 16:13

Although is has been stated that the government plans to appeal,
I don't know if in fact it's been filed yet.

I would agree with Rex about the delay tactic,
Also I would think that they would need more time
to get their act together, I hope they do not plan on using the same
tactics that were used in publicly defending it, they may have gain some ground
with the public with these tactics, however defending it to the courts will be a whole different ball game.

I don't think that they thought this would end up in court,
I also think that they know that once the whole NVC is to be
brought to light to the courts, the courts will see right through it.
One just has to understand it, compare the two, do the math, and it will be clear as mud in determining the answers.

As I have stated before, I do believe that going forward, Veterans, and Veterans groups in this country will
be forced to take their fight to court, as raising our concerns, and arguments, just don't seem to work anymore.

If indeed the courts rule in our favor, and make a statement claiming that the NVC was implemented as a cost cutting measure.
Well the Media will be all over this, and I would not want to be the one, who has to answer to it.
I really don't know if that's how it will play out, I guess it would depend on how the Judge sees it.
In my own opinion, and of course I could be wrong, that is the way I see it.


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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by RobbieRoyal on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 06:20

I am fully aware of the dealings and methodology of our illustrious governing body Rex, and when I said Looks like they are on their own I was poking metaphorically at our own SISIP Clash of the Smoking Mirrors. I also realize that the group conducting this appeal process have been following our case and indeed have learned a ton of "not what to do" or at least I hope so. Obviously a tactic to delay a process that inevitably will gather support but I wonder how much support, Joe Public is growing tired of these Class Action Suits and that is a fact. Fantino is paying Lip Service to the Public by not addressing his claims or for the betterment when you tell the public that a pensioned service member CAN make up to 10,000 a month then it is assumed all retired servicemen make 10,000 a month. Fantino is doing nothing but keeping the TB and the Harper Government happy, they love the squabbling and the public grows tired very quickly. Thats how I see it.
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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by bigrex on Wed 20 Aug 2014, 00:59

Teen, I know that the Equitas lawsuit is being done pro bono, but you'd be hard pressed to find very many lawyers that as honourable. Sure, one may agree to go to a judicial review for free, or even conditionally, but not to take on a case that will likely end up in the supreme court, at least once, for a single client. But honestly, based on the premise of the case, I cannot see any judge saying that it doesn't meet the criteria of a Class Action. Whether they feel the arguments against the NVC are justified or not, remains to be seen.
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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by Teentitan on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 21:41

Actually Rex Mr. Sorochan and his law firm are doing this Pro Bono. The only monies they are looking for is donations for travel, depositions etc.

So the GoC knows they are up against a man with a very moral compass who is fighting for what is right.
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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by bigrex on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 21:35

Robbie, are you really surprised that this government appealed? They would rather spend money on lawyers fighting Veterans, than admit that they screwed up. And this is not the end of the class action, this is merely a delaying tactic. They are trying to throw as many hurdles in the way as possible. They did the same thing in the SISIP case, which is why we had to go to the supreme court just to be allowed to proceed as a Class Action. They would rather each Veteran sue them individually, because they know most cannot afford an attorney, and that most attorneys are not going to go up against the Government for a single client, it isn't profitable enough.
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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by RobbieRoyal on Tue 19 Aug 2014, 19:47

Looks Like they are on their own troops.

The Harper government says it intends to appeal a B.C. court ruling that cleared the way for a class-action lawsuit involving veterans of Canada’s war in Afghanistan.

A group of ex-soldiers is taking Ottawa to court, alleging that the federal government’s new system of compensating veterans violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by bigrex on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 23:34

Honestly, I think that if one judge can approve a case, based on its merits and legal strength, even if complicated, most others will as well. I also feel that the SISIP appeal we lost was a fluke, and the only reason we lost is because the Crowns main example of case law was made by the same judge who heard the appeal. So therefor, it was a long shot that he would dismiss an argument based on his own decision. So unless the GoC lawyers have come up with a stronger defense than what they argued during the last trial dates, or get a judge who had previously denied an "Honour of the Crown" style case in the past, the appeal hearing is nothing more than a stalling tactic.
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Re: Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by Guest on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 20:13

I just hope that all Veterans can get the ongoing monthly pension, this lump sum payment is for the birds, it is simply a way for the government to save money on the backs of Veterans.
It makes me angry to even hear that Veterans have to fight for this in court.
Will the government ever stop and think for one minute, that they cannot fool everyone, two positive things that comes to mind with regards to this lump some deal, and the fight to get rid of it, the media has been vigilant in making the point of letting the public know, how unfair the lump sum is to Veterans. And of course we have the Legal side, on our side to fight it. Let's hope the media continues to give the attention needed to support us in this fight, and let's hope the Legal team can win this battle for us.

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Class action to test government promise to veterans

Post by Teentitan on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 01:31

Written by Jean Sorensen
Tuesday, 31 December 2013

The extent to which a federal government promise or social covenant to veterans to care for them and their families in the event of death or injury binds successive governments will be tested in a class action suit hoping to move forward for court certification in mid-2014.

A proposed class action from Afghan war veterans will take on the New Veterans Charter.
A proposed class action from Afghan war veterans will take on the New Veterans Charter.
The case is being taken forward by a Vancouver team of Miller Thomson LLP led by partner Donald Sorochan, who is representing six veterans with injuries sustained while serving Canada but feel they have not been fairly cared for.

Sorochan said the court challenge is unique. “It has never been argued that social covenant has constitutional importance.”

The cases hinges upon the New Veterans Charter of 2006 issued to deal with Afghanistan veterans and sets out what services and compensation returning injured veterans can receive. Payments are lump-sum with a cap of $250,000. The charter replaces previous Pension Act benefits, which were long-term and monthly.

“What we are suing for is really a constitutional challenge in many respects,” said Sorochan, who maintains the federal government provides a lesser standard of care to veterans under the NVC than those given to other service men and women under the Pension Act. Sorochan’s team is arguing the federal government does not have the right to limit that level of care and compensation.

The problem facing veterans under the NVC was brought to his attention when a neighbor asked for help after his son Gavin Flett, a reservist, had been deployed to Afghanistan where he sustained severe leg injuries while felling a tree. He has had surgeries on the smashed legs and ongoing medical problems. The federal government’s NVC, which provides lump sum payments, paid out $13,500 based upon a rate established for various injuries and income loss.

Sorochan said he is not against lump-sum payments if they are adequate to meet the individual’s long- term needs for physical or psychological support when an injury has occurred. Nor, is he advocating suing for battlefield decisions. “I am not advocating the negligence of a battlefield decision,” he said, but “if a person is injured through service to his or her country” then there should be fair compensation.

Sorochan said a social covenant was made to military personnel during the First World War by Prime Minister Robert Borden in 1917.

“It is about promises that Borden made, mostly to men in those days and prior to Vimy Ridge, that if you fight for your country and you are injured, we will care for you and for your family if you fell,” said Sorochan. “That social covenant was not made just at one time but was repeated and also in veteran legislation from the First World War until this new charter. All of a sudden that disappears.’’

Sorochan claims that social covenant is of the same “constitutional importance as promises by the representatives of government to the First Nations” where court cases evoked the legal doctrine of “honour of the Crown” which asserts that Canada is honour bound to carry out the promises of the social covenant.

The federal government had earlier attempted to get the action dismissed but in Scott v. Canada (Attorney General), released Sept. 6, 2013, the justice described the action as “about promises the Canadian government made to men and women injured while in service to their country and whether it is obliged to fulfill those promises.”

The court permitted the action to continue on the basis of the social covenant and the honour of the Crown pleadings as well as claims for breach of fiduciary duty and claims under the Charter.

In the September ruling, the federal government acknowledged the NVC did not provide the same coverage that was provided under the Pension Act.

“This was more a move by government to save money,” said Sorochan as the government dealt with Afghanistan war veterans. But, Sorochan does not believe the government has the right to erode the social covenant based on federal government budgeting. This particular covenant differs from other normal government issues that may transcend several governments and parties in power.

He said many of today’s veterans are returning home to find they are facing disabilities with little compensation and feel the Canadian government has abandoned them. The spate of four suicides of military men in late 2014 has furthered steeled his resolve to see the case through.

Sorochan, though, would like to see the federal government settle the issue out of court.

“There are really two courts — there is the law court and the second is the court of public opinion.” Sorochon doesn’t believe there is a good enough defense that government can rally to win in the court of public opinion.

http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/legalfeeds/1861/class-action-to-test-government-promise-to-veterans.html
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