VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

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VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by redfisher on Sat 01 Mar 2014, 19:52

For those of you who have been battling your ex with regards to child support you just may want to read this. Currently I am in a court battle to determine the correct amount of Child Support I need to provide for my children, and the monthly VAC Pension benefits are directly involved. Thanks to Denis for winning the Class Action for us Vets this decision has brought about new laws in provincial courts. As the VAC benefits are now deemed to not be income or income replacement but actually pain and suffering payments the question is 'are the VAC pension benefits to be included in determining monthly Child Support?' In Alberta the answer is NO.

At this time there is another court battle being taken place in Ontario. One of the matters that is being disputed is the question of 'are the VAC pension benefits to be included in determining monthly Child Support?'. Although the court has yet to decide on this issue it does look quite favorable that the VAC Pension will not be included, with the exception that the additional VAC benefits for the Child are included. What does this mean to us Veterans? It means that the VAC Pension is yours as it was meant to be. We sacrificed ourselves for our country got injured and this is for us to enhance our damaged lives. The other portions of the benefit, for spouse or children is meant to help them.

The court battle is one hurdle to overcome yet there is another battle which many of you may be experiencing is the battle with your ex. For those of you who have an amicable divorce, are co-parenting your children and have a good working relationship with your ex then my hat goes off for you. Your involvement with your children and your contributions to their welfare are to be commended. Then there is the other side of the coin the one where there is a constant bitter and escalating battle with the children caught in the middle. This is not good especially for the wee ones. Regardless of the differences of opinions you and your ex are fighting about this is my story and it may help you in your battle.

My first clue to her possible mental disorder was when I was leaving the house to be deployed to Bosnia. We both were in the Forces and had two wonderful children together. The day I was leaving to go on tour she came up to me and stated 'you are abandoning us for your job'. That left me a bit uneasy and made me wonder about our marriage. Seven months later I returned home and in her eyes I could do nothing right. No matter how much I changed for her it was never good enough. When I did everything she asked there was always something else that she needed me to do and I had to do it her way. Nothing I ever did pleased her. Something was going on and all indications pointed at me being the problem.

It so happened that I was having such a difficult time that I put in my release. In my release request I made a statement that I was having such a difficult time since Bosnia that I could not cope. The Base Chief got my release request and I soon had an appointment with him. He mentioned I may have PTSD and that the military had excellent doctors that could help. I took his advice, chucked my release, and went to the doctors. You know the rest of the story.

Things did not get any better in my marriage and we soon divorced. Actually it went like this, you sign the divorce papers right now or I am going to the police to tell them that you are abusive, have you arrested and you will never see the kids again. But if you sign them now you will have full access to them. Knowing my ex and being who I was at the time, a guy struggling with every fibre in his body to keep things together, I signed the papers reluctantly. In essence she knew I was down, struggling and used that against me in order to gain control. It worked.

Things went smoothly with the ex and our children as long as I gave into her demands. If I did not there was hell to pay. It was easier to give in than to fight as I had learned that nothing I did or said was ever good enough for her. In the back of my mind I knew this was wrong yet I could not find a way to break the cycle. This was bothering me and the stress of it was building and building. Something had to be done.

In 2006 I was deployed to Afghanistan. Little did I know at that time was that the PTSD I had worked on at home was going to hit me harder than anything has ever done in my life. I was sent home early as I kinda went squirelly and withdrew after the 19th of my fellow soldiers died. To say that I was a mess was an understatement. In 2009 I was medically released which was fortunate as VAC took over my medical needs and placed me under the care of an awesome psychiatrist. Today I am living to the best of my abilities in a little town on the west coast. I know my limitations and work within them in order to keep the stress levels low as they can and do throw me off and that is not good. Back to the point I was trying to make, my psychiatrist pointed out that my ex still had me under her thumb and I had to do something about it. He told me to read everything to do about narcissism and I did, my eyes opened and finally the fog started to lift. I was able to begin pinpointing the different tactics and manipulations/behaviors she was using against me. This insight made me very very angry and finally after all the years of her abuse I found a solution. I was no longer a victim of her manipulations and my confidence and will emerged from all that confusion she created. The freedom from her games is wonderful and the energy I have regained is helping me fix the damage. Being an unknowing victim burns me but now I have the skills and know how to not let it happen again. Finally I stood up to her.

When I did she went f'n ballistic! What I did was grow a backbone and stood up to her. She demanded that I pay her more in Child Support and I said 'No'. That was it just a 'No' in a registered letter from Canada Post. 'With regards to your demand for more Child Support, 'No'. Talk about WWIII starting. Yet strangely it felt good standing up for myself. Now, $18 000 in legal fees later, and growing, it still feels good to do the right thing for the right reasons. What I had learned was that she most likely was a narcissist. Narcissists love to have control and will do everything regardless of the consequences to those around them to get what they want. That is the need to feed their ego. Chaos, deceits, lies, mud slinging, character assassination, accusations and whatnot are all used to elicit one thing. To discredit you and to get people on her side to prove she is right. The fact that she may be absolutely wrong has does not enter her mind. It does not matter in the least what does matter is that people perceive her as the victim. This way her ego is stroked, or fed, and she is the victor. Even using the children as pawns in order to gain control is perfectly acceptable. There is nothing we can do or say that will make a difference, nothing.

Does that sound like a good thing to do, nothing? Being a guy I need to fix things to make them right, to smooth things over, there is a solution to everything but in this case you will drive yourself loony if you try. Because it simply does/will not work on narcissists but doing nothing does. Here is why. Narcissists will reveal themselves by their own actions. The more you don't engage with them the more they will try to discredit you. Their tactics will escalate, their lies will become more elaborate, she will manipulate anyone to believing you are the bad guy and the more she does not get her way the more desperate she will get. This works in your favor because soon she will be confused with which lies she told who, elements of her various lies will become elements in different lies and soon all her lies will break down. No matter how much she stomps her feet or flaps her arms in order to convince everyone you are doing her wrong people will see who she really is. She won't get it nor even comprehend what she has done because her ego won't allow it. And through all this what have I done, nothing. Set boundaries, stick to them, and do not engage EVER.

I like many of you who have children and have been divorced or are in the process of getting one are in for a nasty treat if your ex is like mine, a narcissist. Given that I am not a professional and cannot diagnose her with this condition I base this bold statement from her personal behaviors towards me. Therefor from experience from years of her abusive and escalating negative personal attacks at me I have found that there is nothing that can be done to stop her. What you can do is learn about narcissism. Learn the behaviors, learn to recognize the tactics, find out how to set up and maintain boundaries, learn not to engage and most of all understand that everything they do is to feed their ego. It is not about you it is all about them. Understand that everything they say and do is for one purpose, their own. Stick to what you know is right, stick up for you children no matter how bad things get. Your kids are smart and will see that you are the strong one. They will see who she is and later in life her actions will come to bite her through the children. The Karma train will arrive at full steam and it will be full. But right now do nothing.

Let's get back to the court battle. The issue does the VAC pension income to be included in the calculation of Child Support? In Alberta it is No not to be included. In a month or so there may be a court decision that also says No. What does this mean? For Veterans receiving the VAC Pension you will/may have to do a motion to change in order to change the amount of Child Support. Now there are two schools of thought about this. One is that you would be providing less for your kids if you take out the VAC pension. The other is that you could use your VAC Pension money to do more with your kids. In either way the additional Pension for children will still be used as income for Child Support. But the main issue that I am standing up for is to hold true to myself in defending my position about providing for my children using the Federal Child Support tables and to not be taken advantage of. Fair Child Support. Therefor I am standing up to her, standing up for my children all within the boundaries of Canadian law. If she were the average parent who symbiotically worked with me for the sole purpose of providing the most for their children this case would not be happening. As it is she steadfastly refuses to go to any counselling, mediation, any attempts at co-parenting or anything which would take her control of the children away from her. Remember the kids are pawns and you are the bad guy. She has no empathy and will do everything to discredit you to maintain that control. Regardless of who she damages.

This is what I have done. Beginning of 2009 I have retained professional legal advice for the sole purpose of providing her with an accurate income statement to determine Child Support. This was needed as she never once accepted that I was giving her the actual proof of all my income. Every year since 2009 she still does not believe the lawyers determination of my income. In 2011 we went to court and we settled at the beginning of 2012. In 2013 she started up another, the current, legal proceedings as she is not satisfied and wants to redo it all. Why? She needs to win, she wants more money, and I am the one to provide it to her. Its a classic golden uterous syndrome, the sperm donor (me) has little to no rights towards their children but is 100% responsible to provide whatever money the golden uterous wants to retain her lifestyle. Remember that laws and legal judgements do not work for narcissists as narcissists believe they are right in everything and if they feel entitled to something. Nothing and I mean nothing will stop them in order to get it. Not even a court ordered decision. This is reality.

Dealing with someone who suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder in the family court system is a hellish task. The battle with someone who is an extremely high-conflict personality is worse than constantly putting your hand into an angry hornets nest. I would personally rather be awake and un-medicated during a root canal if given the option of choosing one over the other. Remember to stay calm and let the narcissist sink their own ship because they will. The narcissists perceptions of events are their reality regardless of the facts. Most of their so called grievance's are created simply with some embellishments made up of lies and deceits which generally steamroll themselves into one massive deception that the narcissist tells over and over to anyone who listens and so much as they truly believe their own lies. To those uninitiated these stories are high drama used to elicit a high emotional response in order to get them to become an empathic ally who is sympathetic to the narcissists story. Being a professional victim and gathering followers is a huge ego boost that feeds the narcissist. Eventually everyone except themselves can see their stories as false. The more desperate they get the more elaborate the story, the more embellished and fanciful it will become. If the narcissist is confronted about the true facts they will ultimately turn things up a notch becoming animated, getting louder and use false emotions to enhance their story for the sole purpose gaining support. To the uninitiated the narcissist comes across as somebody who has been abused, hurt or slighted and will side with them even when the facts state otherwise.

The list below is an essential list of what to do in court. Some of it is borrowed and some changed but the fact is the wisdom within is invaluable.

1.Retain the best Lawyer you can afford: They are the ones who are not emotionally tied to the narcissist and have vast experience shutting them down. The lawyer will refute any allegations and focus on what is really important - the facts. The narcissist cannot directly have a go at you and this is in your favor as narcissists hate loosing control of their unwilling subjects. Just ignore them and point out irregularities the narcissist states to your lawyer. Let the lawyer speak and follow their advice no matter how much the narcissist is bending reality.

2.Prepare: When it comes to friends and acquaintances, prepare for the reality that many people will fall for the narcissist's manipulations. Many will fall prey to her sinister tactics. Narcissists cannot tolerate failure and therefore will not accept that they had any part of the demise of the marriage. Narcissists are known to run massive smear campaigns and you will be painted as the villain in their efforts to exact a calculated character assassination on you.


3.Eliminate or limit communication: If you can't eliminate communication, keep it short and unemotional. While zero contact is suggested when ending a relationship with a narcissist, it is impossible if you have children together. Set personal boundaries and not to deviate from them. Narcissists feed off of control, intimidation and eliciting emotions that they themselves are incapable of experiencing. Do not satisfy their twisted and selfish hunger by giving them what they are requesting. Do not at any time provide them with any information by email that they don't need. Anything you give them will be used in some way to assassinate you in court. They will even use your children as pawns at every opportunity, although they will blame you for doing this. Don't worry this is just a projection, a tactic they use.

4.Practice acceptance: Practicing acceptance is extremely difficult and is frustrating as hell. You need to accept the fact that you will never win in the mind of a narcissist. You will not be able to change their distorted thought process regardless of how many times you remind them of the real version of the story at hand. Or how many times they take you to court. You need to accept that you are not dealing with a rational, healthy person because acceptance is the key to moving forward.

5.Maintain composure in court: Your job is to walk through the courtroom doors completely prepared. Stay composed and focused while reserving your emotions for outside of the courtroom. While in court, be prepared for the waters to get downright muddy. This is one of the narcissist's best weapons. The narcissist will project all of their problems and shortcomings onto you with all the drama and flair of a professional actor. Respond to false allegations calmly with credible, factual information but do not get caught up defending every minor allegation as tempting as it may be. This is the time to choose your battles wisely. It is very easy to get upset while listening to testimony of a narcissist due to the dishonesty and manipulations. Listen calmly and take notes. Make bullet points of items that you would like to address but do not allow yourself to get sidetracked and angered. Stay focused and stay centered at all times.

6.Make reminder notes: You need to remind yourself that you are dealing with a narcissist. If needed, write yourself a post-it note that says, "Reminder: I am dealing with a narcissist" and stick it to the front of your binder, forehead or notepad. Many battles in history were lost simply due to the element of surprise. Do not let history repeat itself on your watch. Do not expect a narcissist to follow the law, rules or protocol of any kind. Expect lies, vicious attacks, bizarre behavior and the unexpected. Expect the unexpected at all times keeping you off balance is a control tactic they use to keep you under their thumb.

Keep your cool when being assisinated by them, the accusations and whatnot is extremely difficult to bear, just remember they are projecting what they are doing onto you. In essence they are outing themselves but pointing the finger at you. You will always be the deadbeat, the bad guy, the one who will not compromise, the one who screws everything up. Water off a ducks back when you learn to let go and begin to understand that you can make a conscious decision to be a survivor rather than a victim. Knowledge is power and being educated and prepared has been life changing for me personally. Divorce is difficult enough but if you find yourself against a narcissist then you in for a very rough ride. Remember there is no winning against the narcissist there is only holding your ground until your kids are on their own.

If you are always in doubt about the agreements you make with your ex, that she changes aspects of the details and says that we never agreed on things. If she keeps you in confusion and you are in a fog - then that is called Gaslighting. Check it out. Hang in there and do nothing because that is the only way to shut down a person with this disorder.

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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by loggie on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 11:07

Thanks for this news Redfisher. Any clue how long it might be before Ont makes a final decision?
Ref your ex, I feel for you. Mine is quite similar; i.e. gimme,gimme, gimme.
Good luck to you man.

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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by redfisher on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 12:55

I hear from my lawyer on Monday and she should give me a court date. If things go favorably a lot of Veterans are going to be happy. Yet all these court appearances and legal what not is because I finally stood up to her. For me its all about getting her to stop her crazy demands.
She even went so far as to get me ganisheed after we settled and agreed on the issues. Therefor she was collecting Child Support equal to our agreed amount and getting a bonus from the garnishee. To set things back to our original agreement I provided her with the next monthly Child Support cheque less the garnishment. She went ballistic.
Just another day with her entitlement issues.
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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by KingstonKommando on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 13:15

Does this apply to the Kingston area?

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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by bigrex on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 13:54

It's good that the Provinces are finally putting into writing, what the PA pensions were intended to represent. But if anything, I think it was the GoC lawyers using the fact that PA pensions are included in the calculations for spousal and child support, as their only real defense for the clawback, that brought this issue to light.
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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by Trooper on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 16:43

As you may already know only the disability portion of what you are receiving from your VA can be attributed towards calculating and amount for the purpose of child support.
Attendance allowance, clothing allowance, exceptional incapacity allowance ect... cannot be used as and amount when doing such calculations.
( Hart v. Hart, {2003} O.J. 2836 (S.C.J) )

I do agree that any changes to reflect having the total amount of VA received not being counted in as income for the purpose of calculating child support. would be a
solid victory for those who find themselves in a position of paying child support.
I am by no means against individuals paying child support, but I think some use the system as a way of taking in the child support for their own personal financial gain.
Once the support payment is made, it is now in the recipients hands to do with it what they want, nobody monitors what they do what the payments.
However if the payee fails at making the full payment, they are quick to take action on the payee, and they will be dealt with accordingly.
So why do they not monitor both sides, that will be the best way to ensure that the children's best interest are being looked after.

My nightmare ordeals have come and gone, I no longer have to deal with it, that is a major load off of me.
In my experience what I found was that when it came to using my VA income for the purpose of calculating child support,
no Lawyer would agree that not all of my VA income could be used for this calculation.
So I took the following action, paid off my Lawyer, and told her to take a hike.
I now was representing myself, this was total dedication on my part, as I now was preparing Legal affidavit,
when I had my day in court, I arrived well prepared, I did prove that my ex was not using the payments for child support purposes,
and the Judge did agree that not all of my VA could be used to estimate the payment for child support.
So I fought back and won, this is where the nightmare stopped for me.

In conclusion, I feel that child support should be just that, support that supports the child, in should not be viewed and or take advantage of as a win fall.
If the recipient feels that they deserve money for themselves, well that's why we have such a thing called spousal support.
If the payee has been given and amount by the courts to pay for child support, the recipient should have to provide accountability as to where the payment went with respect to the children. That is not the case, and that is why major problems exist, it sides in the favor of the recipient.
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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by bigrex on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 22:27

Trooper, I fully agree. There is no accountability and as far as the laws are concerned, as long as the child has a roof over their head, and gets 3 meals a day, even if it's dry cereal, the parent is living up to their "legal" responsibilities. I know of one guy who was forced to live in a small 2 bedroom apartment, for years, because that was all he could afford after his payments, while his ex is living in the 4 bedroom home that he paid for, and goes on trips down south every year (without her kids). She even has a live in boyfriend, but won't get married or claim common law, because then her spousal support would end.
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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by cudaguy on Sat 07 Mar 2015, 09:31

Very eager to see how your issue settles in court. I too, will be heading to court over the sisip payout soon. I had even gone so far as to offer her a portion of it when the cheque came....however she got greedy (as per usual) so I kyboshed that idea. My VA counts in its entirety for the purpose of child support. The court even generously gross it up. I had used the entirety of the sisip settlement to put on the mortgage. The kids get 100% benefit that way as they will inherit the home eventually. Hopefully that helps me during my inevitable day in court. It is tiresome and a complete drain emotionally and financially dealing with women like this. 7 years on and she still makes life miserable.

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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by Cali77 on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 19:05

I have a different situation. My first husband died while on active duty in Bosnia and I receive a survivors pension from VAC that is non taxable. Eventually I remarried and had two children with the new spouse. Fast forward to 2012, the marriage ended and my ex moved out. He left me in a bad way financially and I've been digging myself out of a hole ever since. Both children live with me, and my ex has access. His alcoholism has spiraled out of control to the point of him getting a DUI among other things. He hasn't paid anything for child support, and we both work at the same place (awkward I know ...) making the same wage. The only difference in income is the VAC pension and a much smaller DND pension (taxable) that's it. My ex contested the divorce statements and now expects me to pay him spousal support. I included the VAC pension and DND pension in my statement of income. I thought VAC pensions weren't "income tested" and can't be garnished or used to calculate gross income. I remember one year I mistakenly put the VAC pension on my tax return and Revenue Canada had a field day, telling my I owed them over $6500 in taxes. It took a letter from VAC lawyers to sort it out. What do you guys think? Does my deadbeat ex have a chance to win this? Thanks for you input!

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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by Trooper on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 19:32

This guy sounds like a real winner, one good thing his out of your house.

The thing is unlike child support - spousal support is much harder to get.

If he is working and the kids are under your roof, I don't think he would stand much of a chance, if any.

If it goes to court, the court knows this, and will more than likely not award him spousal support.

If he has not paid any child support, two things - 1, depending on the age of the children, 1 to 18, 18 and up if attending secondary education, indefinitely if a child is disabled , if this has not been filed with the courts, you need to get this done.

2. If it is already filed by the courts, you need to get in touch with the family responsibility department in your area, they will assign you a case worker who will go after him for the backdated child support he owes you, and believe me they will.

You and your kids come first, fight him, as he is fighting you for spousal support.
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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by Guest on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 20:33

lol this guy is an idiot . dot your I,s and cross your T,s for sure but...... working the same job at the same wage he will get nothing but a reprimand from the judge .

ya see to my knowledge its not what you earn but more the ability to earn that decides spousal support cases . if there was absolutely nothing wrong with him on the day he left ( after that date doesn't matter ) and he remained unemployed for no other reason than he just didn't want to work he probably would get nothing but working the same job at the same wage he will get nothing.

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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by Trooper on Sat 11 Apr 2015, 11:57

Cali77 I sent you a private message, you can view it by going to the top of this page an clicking on your message.
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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by red510 on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 19:10

Does anyone know if ELB is considered income for the purposes of calculating child support/alimony? Thank you in advance.

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Re: VAC Disability Pension benefits and Child Support, the new changes in the law. Thanks Dennis.

Post by 81A on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 12:31

ELB is considered income as it is taxed by CRA so it will count towards support payments. I know this because my payments went up due to this.

I was reading this thread and was wondering what the outcome was regarding the initial post about non taxable income etc

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