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Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by bigrex on Sun 10 Dec 2017, 19:47

You are right Vet, I messed up when punching in the numbers. i should have caught that.
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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by Vet1234 on Sun 10 Dec 2017, 17:02

bigrex wrote:Unfortunately, you never really get the benefit of CPPD, if getting ELB, because it is deducted 100%. Then at age 65, when your ELB/CIA/CIAS, is merged into the RISB, and is reduced by 30%, it continues to deduct CPP, as well as OAS at 100%

Age 64

ELB $4000 (after CPP is deducted)
CPPD - $1000
CIA grade 2 - $1200
CIAS - $1103

= $8303/mo gross

Age 65

RISB - $1209 (After deductions)
CPP - $1000
OAS- $600
CIA - $1200
CIAS - $1103

= $5112/mo Gross

So the difference after age 65, is almost $3200 less a month. The last time I checked, the bills don't get reduced when you turn 65, so neither should our benefits.Even if they didn't include CIA/CIAS in the RISB calculations, it wouldn't be as bad.

Its 7303$ when 64 not 8303$
so 2200$ difference
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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by Nemo on Sun 10 Dec 2017, 11:55

Tho not directly related to the question at hand here, it is important for all who have CFSA that the increase you see at age 60 (unless you are on CPP(D) will be gone when you turn 65. Some people actually find at age 65 that they don't even get their prior age 60 amount of their CFSA. But it differs from person to person.
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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by bigrex on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 18:20

Unfortunately, you never really get the benefit of CPPD, if getting ELB, because it is deducted 100%. Then at age 65, when your ELB/CIA/CIAS, is merged into the RISB, and is reduced by 30%, it continues to deduct CPP, as well as OAS at 100%

Age 64

ELB 90% pre-release pay
- CPPD
+ CIA
+ CIAS

= total monthly benefit

Age 65

RISB amount (ELB + CIA + CIAS) - 30%
- CPP
- OAS
- CIA
- CIAS
= reduced monthly income

So the difference after age 65, can a few thousand dollars a month. The last time I checked, the bills don't get reduced when you turn 65, so neither should our benefits.Even if they didn't include CIA/CIAS in the RISB calculations, it wouldn't be as bad.


Last edited by bigrex on Sun 10 Dec 2017, 20:48; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by robleggett on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 17:16

Well I guess I should call them up and report that I'm getting CPP now, before I owe to much money from getting the ELB!!

One step forward and two steps back eh

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by prawnstar on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 10:56

robleggett wrote:So now I'm thinking I made a mistake taking CPP early, I should of waited till I was 65, then ELB ends and I wouldn't have to take the CPP of my ELB, right

I applied for and got CPPD it is income but the gain is, as you said, after 65 ELB stops.

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by robleggett on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 10:22

So now I'm thinking I made a mistake taking CPP early, I should of waited till I was 65, then ELB ends and I wouldn't have to take the CPP of my ELB, right

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by robleggett on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 08:30

prawnstar, I think your right on the CPP, but I'm not sure yet on the indexed pension? If you read through the post, it does say that the indexing is included when calculating the ELB.

I do agree with you though, just when you think your getting a little ahead, they knock you back with one of their million rules

2.The EL benefit payable per month is calculated using the following formula:

Variable “A” minus Variable “B” = “C” (EL benefit payable per month before taxes)


22 The following sources are prescribed for the purpose of the amount of variable B in subsection 19(1) of the Act:

(a) [Repealed, SOR/2012-195, s. 1]


(b) benefits payable under the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act, the Public Service Superannuation Act or the Employment Insurance Act;


(c) benefits payable under the Canada Pension Plan or the Act Respecting the Québec Pension Plan other than amounts payable for a dependent child;


(d) benefits payable under any employer-sponsored long-term disability insurance plan;


(e) benefits payable in respect of economic loss under the Government Employees Compensation Act or any provincial workers’ compensation legislation;


(f) amounts payable in respect of economic loss arising from legal liability to pay damages;


(g) amounts payable under an employer pension plan;


(h) employment earnings payable while the veteran is not participating in a rehabilitation plan or vocational assistance plan developed by the Minister or where the veteran is participating in such a plan and the sum of the earnings loss payable for a month plus the employment earnings for the month exceeds the veteran’s imputed income; and


(i) 50% of employment earnings payable while the veteran is participating in a rehabilitation plan or vocational assistance plan developed by the Minister so long as the sum of the earnings loss payable for a month plus the employment earnings for the month does not exceed the veteran’s imputed income.

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by prawnstar on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 15:37

robleggett wrote:Ok, along with this post and reading some other places, I get it now, when the ELB is calculated, they take in to account the indexing of our pensions, so that's great, my ELB will remain the same and I don't have to report anything to them, right?

My other question that goes along with the ELB is that I put in to take my CCP early at age 60, I know big debates on both sides, but I decided its best for me.

Do I have to report this new found wealth? to ELB?

I don't think CPP is considered employment income?
ROB,
I went through the same thing a few years ago. CFSA indexed and CPP both considered income and deducted from my ELB. They just won't let us get ahead

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by robleggett on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 10:00

Ok, along with this post and reading some other places, I get it now, when the ELB is calculated, they take in to account the indexing of our pensions, so that's great, my ELB will remain the same and I don't have to report anything to them, right?

My other question that goes along with the ELB is that I put in to take my CCP early at age 60, I know big debates on both sides, but I decided its best for me.

Do I have to report this new found wealth? to ELB?

I don't think CPP is considered employment income?

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by robleggett on Tue 19 Sep 2017, 00:07

Trooper, thanks a lot man

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by Guest on Mon 18 Sep 2017, 16:14

prawnstar wrote:Hey Trooper. What about the bridging portion of your pension that gets cancelled?

prawnstar,

The only offset that occurs for ELB is as per policy;

Veterans Deductions

The following percentages of the APS listed in section 22 of the Canadian Forces Members and Veterans
Re-establishment and Compensation Regulations (CFMVRCR) are to be considered when determining the
amount of EL payable to a Veteran:

a. 100% of the APS (b) through (g) listed in section 22 of the CFMVRCR;
100% of employment earnings payable while the Veteran is not participating in a rehabilitation plan
or vocational assistance plan developed by the Minister; and,

b.
50% of employment earnings payable while the Veteran is participating in a rehabilitation plan or
vocational assistance plan developed by the Minister so long as:
the sum total of the earnings loss payable for a month, plus the monthly APS (b) through (g)
listed in section 22 of the CFMVRCR; plus the total amount of employment earnings for a
month, does not exceed the Veteran’s monthly imputed income;
Note: For the purpose of calculating the amount of the employment earnings offset for any
Veteran, the “Veteran’s monthly imputed income” will be determined in accordance with the
CFMVRCR as they read immediately before October 1, 2016 where it results in a greater
monthly imputed income amount.

i.
any employment earnings that cannot be offset at 50% using the formula in (i) will be offset
at 100%.
ii.
c.
8.
Employment Earnings

Employment earnings are income amounts a Veteran earns as salary, wages, commissions, bonuses, tips,
gratuities and honoraria in the employment of another person or business. Employment earnings will
always include the income reported in box 14 of the Veteran’s T4 slips.
9.
Employment earnings are based on gross employment earnings, before deductions such as taxes, Canada
Pension Plan, Employment Insurance, etc. In addition, expenses related to employment should not be
considered for the purposes of calculating the net monthly EL benefit payable.

10.
Self-Employment Earnings
Self-employment earnings are income amounts a Veteran earns in a calendar year earned by labour or
resembles income earned by labour:

a. on one’s own behalf;
b. as an independent worker or contractor;
c. engaged in a business activity on his/her own behalf;
d. engaged in the operation of a business as a partnership, co-adventure or corporation;
e. any earnings determined to be earnings from self-employment by the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA).
11.

A fair self-employment earnings rate should normally be based on the information provided by the Veteran
in the form “Determination of Self-Employment Earnings - Earnings Loss Benefit VAC 760e”.
12.

Self-employment earnings may be converted to a gross annual amount; a monthly rate may then be
established by dividing the gross annual amount by twelve.
13.

Investment Income

Investment income, including but not limited to returns from stocks, bonds, mutual funds, rental properties,
etc. should not be considered when determining the amount of earnings loss payable, unless it has been
determined by the CRA that such income qualifies as being earnings from employment or self-employment.
14.

Retroactive Benefits
Benefit offsetting of the APS listed in sections 22 and 23 of the CFMVRCR shall be retroactive for the period
that EL benefits were also payable.

15.
Lump Sum Amounts Resulting from Legal Liability

Any lump sum amount payable from a prescribed source listed in sections 22 and 23 of the CFMVRC
Regulations shall be converted to a monthly payment using generally accepted actuarial principles, and this
amount will be included as a benefit offset.
17.
Overpayments

In the event of overpayments, please refer to policy, EL Benefit and Retirement Income Security Benefits –
Overpayments: Recovery, Remission and Write Off. Veterans should be informed of this decision in writing,
and provided with review rights. If the Veteran can provide substantiated data to support his or her
employment or self-employment earnings, the decision could be overturned.

16.
Resolve Doubt in Favour of Client
Should the decision maker be unable to determine with certainty whether a reported income is employment
earnings, self-employment earnings, or investment income, the calculation of the EL benefit will be done in
such a way as to provide the Veteran with the higher monthly EL benefit before taxes.

file:///C:/Users/John%20Smith/Downloads/pdf-e1063.pdf

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by prawnstar on Mon 18 Sep 2017, 16:03

Hey Trooper. What about the bridging portion of your pension that gets cancelled?

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by Guest on Mon 18 Sep 2017, 15:35

robleggett wrote:Ok, well the more I think about it, I think they will reduce your ELB/EELB, due to the fact that your pension amount is part of the equation, so if it goes up, then the 90% amount would go down?

Wow, its just like prawn said, just when you think your getting a little ahead, they kick you back lol

robleggett,

Looks like you got nothing to worry about, as I thought.

Straight from VAC, if a Veteran is receiving the Earnings Loss Benefit, and later has his or her CF Pension Indexed, there's no offset. Having already received the COLA from the Earnings Loss Benefit, the new Indexing from the CF Pension balances itself out.

The wording of the indexed monthly military salary. means what the salary would be worth at release, and that of the military salary of the senior private in the standard pay group.

This is what was passed on to be.

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Re: Does ELB get clawed back when your CFSA pension gets indexed?

Post by robleggett on Mon 18 Sep 2017, 15:07

Ok, well the more I think about it, I think they will reduce your ELB/EELB, due to the fact that your pension amount is part of the equation, so if it goes up, then the 90% amount would go down?

Wow, its just like prawn said, just when you think your getting a little ahead, they kick you back lol

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