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Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Ex Member on Sat 21 May 2016, 18:11

ha ha now we are getting somewhere . I only have previous versions of the the act back till 2003 . love to see the 98 version or prior . now if this is the case witch makes sense  the changes in 99 to allow the PA pension for " still serving injured " as apposed to " non - SDA injured " really simplifies the issue for me .

if a disabled vet of regular duty was allowed to apply for PA pension upon releases it would only make sense to allow them to extend it to them while still serving as it is done civi side under NEL non economic losses .

it would make no sense at all to have them draw from some other pot of money until release then draw from the PA .

this is why I like these exchanges .

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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by bigrex on Sat 21 May 2016, 17:12

Propat, the changes that were made in 99, was only to extend VAC benefits to all those still serving members, even if the injury didn't occur in an SDA. Before then, if you had been injured in a training accident, or other reason, while in Canada or on regular deployment, you had to wait until you were released from the military before even applying for a PA pension. So even if severely injured, you could go several months, or years, if you had to go through the appeal process, before getting the support they needed and earned.
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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Guest on Sat 21 May 2016, 14:13

ya actually big rex I get all that buds and that's kind of what im talking about and never implied any different . here is the thing though before 99 as a matter of fact before 78 every Canadian was entitled to pain and suffering benefits if hurt in the workplace .

was ALL the military or just those hurt in combat ? ya see where im going with this as it refers to the changes made in 99 ?

could those military personnel hurt but not in combat apply for workman's comp??? I think not as that would require a federal provincial funding agreement something I was unable to find but you can correct me if im wrong pleas do.

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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by bigrex on Sat 21 May 2016, 10:53

Actually Propat, there have been civilian workers compensation programs going back to 1914-15, but they have always the responsibility of the provincial governments. What makes the military and RCMP members unique, even among Federal employees, is they are the only ones that can be stationed anywhere within, or outside of Canada, with little to no choice. If a government job opens up in Ottawa, they aren't going to tell a bureaucrat in BC or NS to pack up their family, and move. They will fill the position from within their ranks, or hire someone from the locale population. But it will be filled by someone who asks for the job, not ordered to take it. So therefor the CF and RCMP required their own unique compensation program, that not only recognize the dangerous situation that they could face during the performance of their duties, even without combat, but also the transient nature of the CF and RCMP. Without the PA, those injured out of country would have been left unprotected.
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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Guest on Sat 21 May 2016, 09:22

RCN fully agree with everything you said except maybe the settle back part maybe . I do like this line of exchange of thought and opinion . this tends to remind people of some of the history of veterans struggles .

some of the things I picked up .....

seems like everyone in Canada except military/RCMP were not entitled to pain and suffering compensation for injuries received in the work place for the moats part until 1999 however id still like some more confirmation on this ? pretty sure their was no other pain and suffering benefit in the military prior to 99 other than the restrictive PA pension ? anyone?? pretty sure we couldn't apply to workman's comp for this either ? anyone ??

seems to me also that eventually they would have to provide one eventually and knew it so instead of coming up with something different for non combat injuries they just used the existing PA right or wrong that's on them not us .

it also seems to me after that the GOC thought that vets benefits cost to much so they developed the NVC and thus fracked over ALL vets combat and non combat injured alike .

just a few thoughts

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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by RCN-Retired on Sat 21 May 2016, 03:30

Rags, I have been watching and listening to your posts for a long time and very much respected your opinions. But the stand you are taking calling out those military people that were placed in harms ways and feel if they suffered their injury and received a WIA strip or SM for their injury they need and should be classified to a higher category. Trooper has also made a great point that for some they were wounded and may have the WIA strip or SM or both but they do not want to start writing about it because it brings out to many harmful demons. Me I have a SM and a few of my injuries were caused on a boarding of one of the Somali pirate ships, in searching for one of them that was hiding, he got the drop on me and shot me in the right shoulder, he did not get a second try at killing me. I do not want to remember taking his life, I do not want to remember the pain that he caused me. I am 100% certain there are many others that just want to forget because when those demons come they cause so much havoc and makes the PTSD worse for me as well as my family, so my suggestion to you is settle back, you were injured you like me have been recognized by our country. The veterans on here that are fighting for benefits are our brothers and sisters, let's "not" make it our concern where or how they suffered their injuries. Bottom line is if their injury was directly related to their job while Serving we all need to embrace and stand together and VAC needs to help them.


Last edited by RCN-Retired on Sat 21 May 2016, 03:36; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Rags on Sat 21 May 2016, 01:03

Teager, thanks for your service. You never should have turned in your WIA strip. They are harder to get then the SM and carry 100 years of history. But that said there be two of us here. Trooper he never revealed any injury the SM is worn on the uniform everyone knows he was injured by that medal. Nothing hidden or secret.

Teager, I dont disagree with most of what you say just the pot of money it is paid from. Its really that simple.

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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Guest on Thu 19 May 2016, 16:27

As the Forum Master I hesitate to influence anyone to come forward on CSAT and reveal their past injuries whether it be front line combat injuries , or otherwise.
It's a personal choice that should be left to each member to decide on their own free will , without any form of influence brought on to them by others.
As stated in one of my previous post , not everyone wants to go public with their combat experiences , or injuries that they are receiving benefits for.
Some are OK with it and they are certainly free to do so.
But the bottom line is that it's a personal choice that should always be left with the member to decide , it is a show of respect towards each other.

The responses posted surrounding this topic are all good ones , members responding to a very controversial topic , or in this case , topics.

The head topic of our Chief Editors speech has come to prove that he indeed knows what his talking about , and presented his speech sound and direct.
We need people like our Chief Editor to say it straight out without worrying about what others who are to afraid to stand up like he did , like Teen so rightfully said , gone are the days where visual injuries matters when it comes to advocating.
Knowledge , good sound intelligent speaking is what counts today , and our Chief Editor hit the nail on the head.

I think it is and insult to him saying that he was not the right person to deliver the speech , he wrote it , he delivered it , and did and excellent job delivering it.

Two question we should all ask ourselves is this , 1. Why did he take his own time to prepare and write the speech ?
2. What gave him the courage that so many don't have to stand in front of our Minister , and a crowd of 100 individuals to deliver such a direct speech ?

The answer to these two questions is very simple , he did it for the benefit of all disabled Veterans.

I think he did an excellent job and I thank him wholeheartedly for standing up for all of us !

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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Teager on Thu 19 May 2016, 10:41

Rags I am a WIA Vet. I recieved the wound stripe and then it was replaced by the SM for me. I disagree with your stance. I know guys who have been shot by accident on the range. A bullet is a bullet doesn't matter where it came from it still inflicts the same damage. Also what about SAR Techs or pilots/aircrew that fly and save lives in Canada? The Navy that patrols Canadian waters? Your excluding people that put there life on the line for others simply because there isn't enemy action.

Try seeing things through there point of view. Take your best buddy that served with you on the front lines of the toughest crap you went through. Now imagine years later your buddy is in a training accident in Canada such as a vehicle roll over and is seriously injured and is medically released. Are you willing to say gee man were best of buds but because you got injured and can't work anymore and have a family you deserve less compensation than me because my injuries happened with the enemy. If your able to say yes tough luck for him then I would have to say you don't have our backs. Just look at it through different lenses in different scenerios and realize combat or not your body still takes a toll.
Those injured here in Canada aren't recognizedlike those in combat because they don't recieve the SM. That should be enough of a recognition for your injuries in combat and can come too full stop there when it comes to benefits.

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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by bigrex on Thu 19 May 2016, 08:36

unfortunately, paying the death benefit for suicide never went anywhere, even though almost every specialist has said that it is a risk for anyone who has been diagnosed with PTSD, or other OSI's. It was something that I was hoping this government would address, once it fulfilled all of it's campaign promises, but now I'm not so optimistic.
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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Rags on Thu 19 May 2016, 07:52

Rex,
I was not one of his staffers at that area for that breach. He had more then one Secretary and I was not on Parliament hill as a staffer I was his Secretary for his riding area. We were his advisory team that he bounced things off of and asked our advise on subjects. I suspect that my DVA file was also breached as that is how that crew under Harper operated.

That MVA was the key implementer of the NVA but the NVA was drafted and complete before him. On the issue of he did nothing with the file agreed except for the override for life time pension. It was there as Ministerial override and was used during his time. There are several A Stan vets that received it. It was not public and done quietly. That pension over ride was all the input I got for change. I am not happy thats all I got but it was better then nothing. I would name the fellows that received the pension over ride but that is private info. You did miss one addition to the new plan that he added on his own after NVA started which was the $250,000 stipend for the death of a soldier KIA. I have no idea who thought it up but he added it. I am still on the fence about it not sure if it was just or not. The fact they added a special note to it to restrict it now from DOA Died of Wounds with a time line from KIA is possibly not very just. When this item was first floated and enacted it was KIA only. I and Im sure several other vet advisers told him same thing, specifically that if you Died of wounds a few weeks later the soldier was not covered and they should be. He was also advised by me that if he extended it to WIA who died of wounds (which he should) then he would have people like me as an example claiming the 250k one day because I will most likely die of my wounds. Was he going to have DVA cover me 10 20 years from now which they should if its enacted. We then got on sticky subject of suicide and I lobbied for covering suicide from complications of PTSD. I have no idea were that went.

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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by bigrex on Wed 18 May 2016, 14:42

Rags, we have not taken anything away from you, or other battle injured Veterans, nor have we argued for anything like that. The whole reason the PA was introduced was to offer workplace protection, since soldiers were not allowed to sue the government for injuries sustained on the job. And to the military, whether you agree or not, combat is considered a workplace hazard. If anything, the bureaucrats are low balling young Veterans with the NVC, specifically because of the number of those being wounded in action in Afghanistan. The last time Canada saw heavy sustained combat, the vast majority of severely injured didn't come home, but now they do, and the bureaucrats knew that they would always be entitled to full benefits. And not after a lengthy fight either. You would never have someone who lost a leg to an IED, or wounded by shrapnel by an enemy grenade, have to plead their case in front of VRAB. So maybe there is your edge over other workplace injuries? You are never treated like a thief when applying for benefits. Plus now they can apply for the CIB, that most workplace injured will not qualify for.

As far your political experience goes, the only possible MP you could talking about is Greg Thompson, who was the MVA who enacted the NVC in the first place, but he didn't include anything to it, or try to improve it in his four years as MVA. And it would make sense that you refused to say his name, since he was also the MVA that was responsible for the whole privacy breach scandal, and as his Secretary, you might have been one of the staffers involved.
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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Teentitan on Wed 18 May 2016, 11:44

Rags well written response but you misunderstand what I have been trying to say all this time. Yes back in the day a visibly wounded veteran would of had impact on delivering speeches. But that day of advocating has come and gone. It's gone because the shock of said veteran making the speech no longer carries an impact because there is too many and Canadians were becoming used to seeing it.

So veteran advocates had no choice but to change battle tactics. Use policy against the policy makers. Show them where the flaws are. Prove the so called top notch service for veterans is not top notch. Unfortunately the knowledge of severly injured veterans of policy was very, very limited. Yes they could do the speech but when it came to answering questions they epically failed and VAC just sat back and smiled because we sank ourselves.

VAC then went after advocates with using thier knowledge of the PA and NVC to their advantage. I had no choice but to learn PA policy because of the federal court case I had to go thru. VAC did not like this and had no problem telling me so. My response was if you think I'm a quick learner the Afghan vets with college/university education learn at lightspeed and can write circles around any VAC bureaucrat.

We are proving it...in spades! Advocates are now educating themselves on NVC policy to fight the bureaucrats. Because this is how the war is being fought. Not on visual appearence but on intelligent level of NVC policy.

Would it be great to have a visibly wounded veteran do this? Absolutely it would be fantastic. Unfortunately that is not happening. But don't think for a second that VAC does not know the injuries of the veterans sitting at the table. They know each vets medical weekness and at times use it to throw the vet off. I have been at the table and one of the meds I had to take gave me a low level of patience. A no-name ADM was losing a disucssion and started to poke at me emotionally to throw me off. So they do know how to play dirty. I've seen them use it against other vets as well.

I respect your WS. I can say with certainty that there would be a lot of veterans with WS if they were not so quickly medically released. Like myself. I lost both my upper lung lobes in the Gulf War while serving with 1 Canadian Field Hospital and was medically released very quickly. You have a brain injury and have the WS so do you think I would have gotten one if I was not released so quickly?

Your advocating when you were active is to be commended. Thank you for helping us. All I want is for you to understand that advocates have had no choice to change tactics. The old way does not work anymore not because it's a bad idea it's because visibly wounded vets who can answer hard questions about policy are few and far between. Also there are visibly wounded veterans who do not want to step in front of a news camera or sit on the other side of the table with VAC bureaucrats.
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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Rags on Wed 18 May 2016, 09:01

Rex Teen,

 I wrote like 2 pages of responses.....then erased it twice. Not worth it, you have no idea what I fought for and if you did you would find argument with it no matter how right I am.
 I dont want our vets community to fight with each other I want us to learn from each other so we get what we deserve from the GOC. You guys on the one hand want a specific result from your positions thats obvious by how you go after me. There is no room for others opinions if they sway away from your desperate need to get your way. I dont disagree with allot of what you two guys and others argue for........I disagree with how you apply it and how you appear to think its fine to group the war wounded in with the ill and work place injured and the mix of all will result in an ok result for all. The problem with your position is someone is going to lose and someone is going to win by the blended all inclusive one veteran one standard position. You appear to have accepted that lose on behalf of the wounded for the benefit of the others.

 I would be in total agreement with all of you if the funds at DVA was limitless and we could get what ever we wanted for all. But thats not the reality. Tough choices have to be made to make the system work financially for the tax payer and the veteran. You need to drown me out to win your position. In a perfect world we would all get whats best. In your world you get whats best for you. In my world wounded in combat will get whats best for us.....sorry thats just my view of it and since there are more of you 1000x more I know we have lost before we even started. I was just hoping that maybe you guys would listen and help us. You are helping yourselves cause your the vast majority. In the end I will still smile at you both and shake your hand when I see you and buy you a beer and enjoy your company as a fellow vet but with that beer and hand shake I will ask you to acknowledged what you took from us so that others could gain. Dont ever for a second think I dont respect you two and support what you are doing sometimes we in the military disagree with the way ahead.... that does not mean I dont respect you and salute your efforts.

Teen the MND and MVA were the maritime MPs. What Im most proud of in those conversations was the inclusion of the long term pension to the new veterans charter. What Im most disappointed with that I did not stop was the New Veterans charter.

Rags

Time for me to bid ya all goodbye. I have waited to see if a member of CSAT was on here of my category "wounded in battle" there are non here. So the members here appear to be all Injured at work and veterans suffering from non military related illness. Thats all fine and I support help and support for all veterans who are suffering and I always have. I as a lone category appear to get no support. If you have any DU questions feel free to contact me as I am a subject mater expert in that. That would be about all I can offer the members of this site. I hope in the future if I have a question and need help from one of you who has a subject matter expertise I need support with you wont ignore me cause i fought for my team to win and lost.

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Re: Speech From our VVi's Chief Editor / Given at the Stakeholders Summit 9-10 May 2016

Post by Teentitan on Tue 17 May 2016, 19:11

Rex let's see if he answers my questions first.
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